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Elinor Grusin

Interview by Jackson Brown.

Audio Transcription


I still live in Tennessee.


Jackson Brown  00:04

We just had a coworker. She's a trans woman. And she just moved all the way across the country to Oregon. And she was like, I just can't, I can't deal with the policy in Tennessee. No, it's really.


Elinor Grusin  00:25

I have a former student who was my advisee and I editor of the helmsmen and so bright, so smart. And she's just got elected to third term in Congress. She's a Democrat from Minnesota, and now she moved out of the area. And she's gay. She's a lesbian, and has a wife and a full life. But she wouldn't come back to Tennessee except to get to Arkansas to visit her mother. And she stops every time though, and we have lunch. But I know Angie will never live she was the one who got attacked in an elevator recently, I don't know if you saw that or heard that or not.


Jackson Brown  01:18

Was it this year? 


Elinor Grusin  01:21

Yes. No, it was this. It was just a couple of months ago. In January, she was coming out of her apartment building. And this guy came on the elevator and attacked her. And she threw hot coffee on him and then fought him. She got bumped around and bruised, you know. But then she picked herself up and went to her meetings.


Jackson Brown  01:50

A strong person. Yeah. That's probably why I didn't hear of it when it happened back in January. Because, man, we were so swamped. Covering Tyree. 


Elinor Grusin  02:05

Oh, my God. Oh, yeah.


Jackson Brown  02:07

It's kind of one of those moments that as journalists, especially because, you know, I did public affairs in the military. And then I did PR as a, you know, on the outside as a civilian. So my time actually, as a honest to god journalist, is this kind of new, but it's like one of those things that I think will stick with me. Oh, absolutely. The work that we did. One of the things that makes you proud. Well, the reasons why I'm glad I made the switch, which was kind of a pay cut, but that's okay. I switch from from PR. 


Elinor Grusin  02:42

Oh, yeah. Yeah.


Jackson Brown  02:44

No offense to my people who work in PR still, but it was just it's not the life I wanted. Yeah. I'm a storyteller.


Elinor Grusin  02:51

You're a storyteller. You're where you belong.


Jackson Brown  02:55

So I'm going to already recorded on a camera, just start recording on my phone just for my own voice. 


Elinor Grusin  03:00



Jackson Brown  03:03

This guy's sync it up real quick. This is interview with Dr. Eleanor Grusin, March 14, March 14 2023 at 12:27pm. Okay, so, can you start by saying and spelling your name?


Elinor Grusin  03:30

E l i n o r. Grusin. G r u s i n.


Jackson Brown  03:37

Okay. And what was your involvement and your years involved with the teen appeal?


Elinor Grusin  03:43

I started having meetings in 1996. With the people with the Commercial Appeal. And the people at the Memphis City Schools. And Superintendent Dr. Jerry house, also had contact with Scripps Howard Foundation, those who are three partners, Scripps, Howard Foundation, commercial appeal, and the Memphis City Schools. There were 29 high schools at the time, and only one had a newspaper that came out about, I think, four times a year. And we knew that the research showed that if you if students participated in journalism in high school, that they had a better chance they're more likely to go to college. So we thought why not bring them into our program? And that's because there was a need, and there still is a need in the industries, journalism industries. For minorities, that minority representation And we thought how there would be a, a benefit to us and that we could recruit people to come into our department. But I really never cared whether they came into our department or some other department in some other state, if we could introduce them to the college campus, and therefore they would maybe be more likely to come out to apply to college and know that it's a possibility. And that's, that was another asset of this. And Scripps, Howard was interested in, in paying for it. Commercial Appeal was interested in printing it, and then distributing it to all the high schools. And high school, I held them a meeting with the principals of all the high schools, Dr. Jerry house, the Commercial Appeal, and the and our administrators at the university and laid it all out for them. That here's what we would do, we would bring the students in, we would hold a summer camp and train them. And then we would serve as their mentors and editors to publish a 16 page paper every month, which I sometimes regretted, during those years when it was a 16 page paper was, even though it's a tabloid, no ads, but just a big blank piece of paper seem challenging at times. But we made it and we put out eight of those a year. From the writings and reporting of our students in the schools, at that same time, I recruited I think about 15. graduates and undergraduates to become like our ambassadors to the schools, to go into schools present the program to the principals and to students and to English teachers, and so forth, to help with the recruiting. And I don't have the last the last figures, but the somewhere around the seventh or eighth, the seventh or eighth year, I had, I have figures that show that we had something in on the order of close to 20 102,100 applicants for the program. And I thought, well, you know, that's a good start. We then start adding the camps. After we got through that whole year of recruiting, and they were fun. And we brought people on campus, like Jeff Calkins, who is highly entertaining. And other people too, and Otis helped out every year. In fact, Otis came in. And he would bring his lunch and sit at our library table and help us select the students. Because, you know, we could only take about 80 with the staff that we had. And I had hired a full time coordinator, away from her newspaper in McMinnville, Tennessee, to come in and be the coordinator and actually meet with the students during the week, and on Saturdays, and they could come in and we had a lab with I think it was either around 10 or 15. I can't remember which computers on the third floor of mainland journalism. And they came in, worked, got tutored and hired a graduate student who had done I think about six years in general in newspaper journalism, and was the most enthusiastic person I think I've ever worked with. She had just come back from hiking the complete Appalachian trails and I thought, That's my person. Because if she's going At that much energy, she can really turn it on with these kids. And she was great. She's now a tenured professor at Ohio University where I got my PhD. And she's also, I saw her in October. And she's it's Amy Edmondson, she worked at a commercial deal 10 years after her graduation, after her master's, and then decided she needed a PhD, went to Missouri, then went to Ohio. And now she's just in this past year become the associate dean at Ohio. So real success story, which I would have predicted. I digress. Do you have other questions? Yeah.


Jackson Brown  10:51

Sounds like there's been a lot of success stories. A lot of the people that we've identified for this project have gone on to


Elinor Grusin  10:58

Oh, yes. Interesting careers. Yes. Yes.


Jackson Brown  11:02

Was there, when you first got this idea to start the T uh, the teen appeal, was there actually -


Elinor Grusin  11:09

It wasn't totally my at my idea. I bought into it early in discussions with Dan Lattimore, who was the then chair of the department. He came from Colorado, and had worked a lot with high school students. And this was something he wanted to do. And I just adapted it and went with it.


Jackson Brown  11:31

Was there a particular student that you wanted to work for the field that you wanted to mentor to teach better writing or anything like that?


Elinor Grusin  11:43

Oh, many of them. I one who stands out right now, though, he didn't stay in journalism, is Marcus Matthews. And he He's since then has called me his other mother. And he's now 42, I think. And he's assistant principal, why station middle. He switched careers, from journalism to education, and went on and got a master's and add a doctorate in education. But he was, had bragged to me that he'd never read a book. Never read a book. And I said, Well, we'll change that. And he's now written several books. So I think he is complete turn around. And then there was a young girl, now young woman from East High School, who I know she wouldn't mind my saying this, she lived in a pretty scary part of town, where she was not allowed to go outside of her home because of everything that went on there. And she decided at when she got to us, that she wanted to go to get a bachelor's in journalism. And she applied for a scholarship to Missouri, she got it. And then she won a national Coca Cola scholarship for additional monies. And then she got an invitation to go to London. And she became if she did an internship in London, for I can't remember the name of the news organization, but it was a religious news organization. And she and then when she graduated, she spent 14 years at the Scripps Howard Treasure Coast newspapers, which are now diaper net, of course. And she did quite well. And now she's just recently moved to Colorado to Denver, and is working there and she got a real advancement and salary. So she's, she's a happy person. You may have heard of someone named Kotori. Hall. Yeah, Kotori is outstanding. She would have been with or without us. She would have been outstanding, because right out of the box after a while she interned at commercial appeal, because we had an ongoing relationship with Scripps Howard where they agreed to give two internships to two of our students when they were ready and they gave Kotori one right out of the box though, after she graduated from college, she wrote a play about Dr. King, and Great Britain awarded her the Laurence Olivier Playwriting Award. Yeah. And her latest writings resulted in the Tina Turner musical which is at the Orpheum now I think it's still there. And she wrote that. And she also has won a Pulitzer. So yeah, it's a lot of success to come out of it for sure. Yeah


Jackson Brown  15:39

Why was it important to teach high schoolers writing and journalistic skills through this?


Elinor Grusin  15:47

Oh, it's important, because they had no other outlets to speak up for their writing. And we felt like, we could work with them and give them the opportunity and just see what happened. And it was an experiment. A lot of them went on to college, some one young man went to work came and was only interested in photography. And he won a trip to Asia, to Japan and some other countries, as a photographer. And then he when he graduated, his name is Kenny Cummings, his mother worked at the university, same time I was teaching there. And he became he, after he graduated, he went to the Jackson sun, and became their chief photographer, finally, and he now is the director of communications for the city of Jackson. So, I mean, you know, as I know that journalism can lead to many different pathways. Some people stay in it for a lifetime. Some people, you know, go off in a different direction, but they still use the skills that they got through journalism. It's, it's a Career Builder,


Jackson Brown  17:25

or some of those skills that were important to teach.


Elinor Grusin  17:29

Oh, and the writing, just teaching them how to ask questions and to question people. For instance, I had a student who wanted to interview the chief of police at the time, which I still remember, the headline, top cop gets questions from students, because he wanted to know why young black kids were most often stopped and harassed by police. And he, we finally decided on a q&a for him to do and he did. And he did quite well. It, it made it I don't know if it made an impression on the police chief or anybody who could make a change. But it certainly made an impression on the readers, all those students in high school who could identify with that. And asking the police chief really blunt questions, and getting the best answers they could.


Jackson Brown  18:42

What were some of the early challenges was getting, you know, the Commercial Appeal and Scripps Howard and all the different parties on board. What were what were some of the biggest obstacles that you had to clear to get this off the ground.


Elinor Grusin  18:58

I don't think there were any obstacles at first. Well, after the first year of their of Scripps Howard funding it. They told me they challenged me to get the next year funding on my own. So I thought, oh, yeah, in my spare time, I'll do that. Because I would write 30 Page reports to them every year detailing every student I still have it on my computer, and what they had done and what they achieved and where they were going to college and what they were studying and how many had gone into journalism and so forth. But I had to go with my little cup in my hand to places like the Plough Foundation, who came through for me on the second fund in the second year. And when Scripps saw that I had gotten fun they want that was their challenge, and we fund the second year can you go out and get Money for the second year. And I did. So that was a good thing to show them. But just keeping them, keeping them informed in the best way I could phone calls emails pumping up what the students had done, or displaying what the students had done, because I want them to know the impact it was having on the students. And because, you know, probably 95 to 96% of them, or black. And that whole thing had been due to the premise had been, how can we diversify newsrooms? You know, can we diversify newsrooms? That was their concern. My concern is what can we do to get these kids into a campus college atmosphere? But it was keeping them informed? That was the biggest challenge.


Jackson Brown  21:17

When you're going through the years of the teen appeal, and you know, eight or nine years later, you're getting 2100 applicants. How hard was it to select your group? And was it easier in a sense that you had all of these people to choose from? Or did it make it harder?


Elinor Grusin  21:38

I think it might have made it harder. But we looked at, we looked at the person from not just whether they were an excellent, outstanding student, but whether there seemed to be a real desire, their real need a real want. It was kind of crazy, because you're trying to read between the lines, and you were trying to see whether this person had a real need and desire to do this. And it's almost like looking for the ones who were begging to come on board. And when we, when we saw that, you know, that was a for sure. Not just someone who's going through the motion of filling out a form. But writing a letter that said how much they wanted it.


Jackson Brown  22:41

Would you get a lot of those?


Elinor Grusin  22:42

Yes. Yes. Yes, we did. That Yeah. Go ahead. No, no, I was gonna say the young woman from East High School who wound up in England, basically, or an internship was and then did the long work. Time with the Scripps Howard newspapers in Florida was one of those. Because she said something about how she had wanted to do journalism since she was, I don't know, an elementary school. And she kept up with the news. So two things that sold us. Yeah.


Jackson Brown  23:39

You think of the first year that the teen appeal was launched? What was that first year like?


Elinor Grusin  23:47

It was like, last minute, Dr. Grusin, would you write us an editorial to fill this space? Sure. Although it's nine o'clock at night, and I should have been home two hours ago. Yes. Things like that. That was the first year. And that was the first issue as a matter of fact. First year was, was tough. Because, well, it was good in a way because we had so many kids coming into the newsroom we had set up, which is took up the space that's now failed, I think by the mark para Ischia and the investigative reporting group. I think it's a group now I think there are three of them. But all that space on the third floor we had as a newsroom. And with computers as there would we had a lot of takers at first, because they they were eager, I guess to be really in involved. But at the same time, we just had the the coordinator and her grad assistant, and me. And that's to feel like Monday through Saturday because we were open on Saturdays too. And it was kind of it was kind of tough and then keeping up with the money and solving any problems that Scripps Howard had in our saw with the program. And when you're doing it long distance, even by email, you can't be detailed enough so that they absolutely know what you're doing and what you've achieved and so forth.


Jackson Brown  25:50

When did you first really know that it was going to work? This idea?


Elinor Grusin  25:53

I think I knew from the beginning. I think I knew from the beginning, because we had this such strong support from the commercial, if you will. The editor was Angus McCarran, I don't know if you've ever heard of him. Now he was used to he and I started out together as reporters. I was the only news reporter on the Commercial Appeal in the 1960s. And he was there in the 1960s as a reporter, and then he left I think he went to Birmingham first. And then he went to Pittsburgh, and was editor of the Pittsburgh press. And he when Lionel lender, who was editor of the Commercial Appeal was killed in an automobile accident. He came back to Memphis, Scripps Howard brought him back to Memphis to be editor here. And so working with him was like working with an old friend. And, you know, he was always positive, always positive. And I knew as long as I had his support, that it was gonna go. And I had promised him that I would do my best to make it a goal from my end. And there was no way I was going to let him down. And I knew he would not let me down. So it to me, it always seemed like it would work. It might work you pretty hard. But it would work. Yeah.


Jackson Brown  27:29

Yeah. Are there any particular issues in those early years that really stand out to you? Any any stories that your team covered that? You know, really made you feel good? Or, you know, any other?


Elinor Grusin  27:42

Oh, yeah, there is? No, when the kids did a story about the weapons detectors, at the schools, and metal detectors. And they could tell you, they interviewed kids who knew how to how to beat the metal detectors. And we published it. And it was a good thing for the schools to know. But at the same time, they were angry that we had published it, you know, but I learned as a reporter myself, if you make if you make some people happy, you're gonna make some people angry. And so, so goes it. And we did get some minor negative feedback from the city school administrators. But it was worth worth it, in my opinion, to have that information out there. But you know, to tell for kids to know how to beat a metal detector. They knew what time the metal detector would be turned off, and they hid in the bushes until they turned it off. And then they went in and, and they're telling of it was to let people know that they're, you know, not necessarily safe. Which was a good thing.


Jackson Brown  29:24

It seems like teen appeal was so unique in that when you read a lot student run newspapers or school read newspapers, it's a lot of soft -


Elinor Grusin  29:34

Oh, it's it's junk. I'm sorry, but it is not everywhere. But it's it's no. There's no real journalism done in so many schools. And yet it depends on the place. I had a good friend who won, though an award Colorado Teacher of the Year, because she was in charge of cities of a city schools where she taught journalism, high school journalism. She was the head of any high high school journalism Association in Colorado. And they did really meaningful things much like what we did. And it was a teen appeal. But it teen appeal was not at all, like, most high school newspapers. I mean, and the kids came up with these ideas, like whether metal detectors worked, and that kind of thing. All right. What can be done about the, you know, over? Can we talk about the Can we talk about the harassment of black males? Bad police? And yes, you can? We'll have to, yeah, what should we do? And we figured out well, let's just interview the chief of police. And those were the kinds of stories that they want it to do. They initiated the good stories. We would suggest a certain stories to them, but they came up with the good ones. So was it. 


Jackson Brown  31:30

You talked about getting school principals on board? Before it started, when they started reading the first issue? Was there a lot of pushback from them? 


Elinor Grusin  31:43

No, only pushback we got really was from a principal don't want to name the school because I may get it wrong, both from a principal who would not distribute would not let the newspaper be distributed at at some point, and I forgotten what the issue was over which he was he was upset. But when things like that came up, I would send the coordinator. And in one case, I went myself and took the coordinator with me, because I thought the coordinator had had made a mistake. And I wanted him to apologize to the principal. And I want to apologize to the principal, but one in which the principal wouldn't distribute the newspaper. And the coordinator went out that time and talked to him. And I think after their discussion, he better understood her and he knew her and he saw her. So he felt better about it, and they let the newspaper be distributed. But we saw problems as they arose. And I as personal as, as personally, as we could either I would go out or the coordinator would go out or we both went out to solve any problems. But we never changed our editorial policy of letting the kids choose the stories.


Jackson Brown  33:28

Sounds like the the interview with the chief of police was that in the first couple of years, like back in the day, 


Elinor Grusin  33:36

Oh, yeah. Yeah. 


Jackson Brown  33:37

It seems like such a story that's ahead of its time. You know? What was the what was the thought behind that story coming out? And was there any apprehension among the students being able to tell that story?


Elinor Grusin  33:53

I don't think so. Not at all. I think probably they should have been more apprehensive than they were. They just want it to do it. And we came up with a we asked for the interview with the chief of police and he readily granted it. And then they went and I believe the grad student went with this student as just kind of moral support, you know, so I wouldn't be scared to ask what he needed to ask. And they taped it. And that was that. Yeah, you know, sometimes, you have to do a little more than maybe an English teacher in high school, but would be willing to do or know how to do. Because most of it, not everybody and actually not many people at all, who run high school newspapers I've ever had any journalism training, if you think about it, so I There is a problem. You know, and they're also very timid about, in many cases about bringing up things that might upset their principal, their boss. So I think we were in a better position as an outside group to bring up stories that we want it needed to do.


Jackson Brown  35:28

Yeah, that sounds you know, it's definitely unique in that it was multiple schools. I know I had ever heard of that. We didn't really have that where I grew up.


Elinor Grusin  35:38

No, your school publication is the only one is the only one that was ever in the country period. And I had people from the Tennessee Press Association come to visit me and ask about how they could back one and another city. And once I started detailing what we did, they said, nevermind, because it's too work intensive.


Jackson Brown  36:08

You think it could happen in other cities, you think Memphis is uniquely positioned for something like this to happen?


Elinor Grusin  36:15

I think Memphis was ideal for this to happen, because, you know, almost, I think at that time 80% That number comes to my mind 80% of the school population and city schools, Knott County at the time because it wasn't city. It wasn't didn't take in the county. Those were two separate school districts. That was before all the suburbs. Joined Amin became independent municipalities, that not independent municipalities, but set up independent municipal school districts. And so, but we only dealt with city schools and they were 80% African American. And no, no, no exposure to journalism. So how are you going to get them recruited in to journalism to diversify newsrooms? Well, you know, your city wide high school newspaper, so I think Memphis was perfect. Or doing it, which is not to say it couldn't happen somewhere else. But you'd have to have someone willing to foot the bill for doing this, to do that much work takes people and time and effort. And you know, it was quite a thing. Quite quite a lot of work.


Jackson Brown  38:01

So you started meetings in 1996 - 


Elinor Grusin  38:05

And we started publication in 97. So that whole year, you were Yeah, I was meeting with people and talking with people and, and hiring a coordinator, and so on and so forth, and answering questions. And meeting with Angus McCarran the editor of the Commercial Appeal, and Otis, who was his Managing Editor, and so on and so forth. So it was a matter of spending a year, basically setting it up. And then starting it in 97. And we started with a camp this summer, before we started. And after the camp, then we got going. Like I said, I don't know when I decided we could do a 16 page paper at times here. But we did. I don't think the helmsman does that.


Jackson Brown  39:14

To be honest, I couldn't tell you if they still print. They might be all online now. I haven't been on campus in a long time, though.


Elinor Grusin  39:27

I don't know. Well, it's challenging to fill that much. To fill that much space with a staff that has no real obligation to come in. They just have to want to because you couldn't compel it. It was a volunteer thing. There's no grade. There's no compelling reason for them to come in and we had no way of enforcing any kind of requirements, but they came in, you know, they kept coming. And I'm still in contact with a number of them. 


Jackson Brown  40:16

Do you think they wanted to come in so that - 


Elinor Grusin  40:19

I think they are the ones who came in like that saw this as, okay, this might be my lifeline to college. And we gave in our department, we gave two scholarships a year to members from the teen appeal. And then we had internships, to offer them at the Commercial Appeal two internships a year, and I think it was like the ones who wanted something better than what they saw ahead of themselves. And they thought, this is, this is my ticket. You know, I don't know, I was the first person in my family to go to college. And as far back as I know, if my family history, and I think I would have joined immediately. Even if I didn't think about doing journalism, if someone was inviting me onto a college campus, and I had a way to get there, I would do it. And we took an awful lot of students home, drove them in our own cars when the tutoring was over, but I would have done it as a way to make contact with a college or university.


Jackson Brown  41:57

Were you involved with the teen appeal throughout its entire run? Did you leave early,


Elinor Grusin  42:03

I retired from and from full time teaching in 2008. And so that, that was 12 years, actually of working with it. And then I kept on working, I had hired a former teen appeal staffer to be the new coordinator before I left, and I kept in touch with him throughout that year, but then I and I kept teaching at Memphis, part time. Because there was a program where they want it to pay people who had the experience to come back and teach, like you could teach four courses a year, or you could teach two and after to teach my law class twice, and to grad students. Because I had been the grad coordinator too at the same time, I was the teen appeal person. For part of that time, I finally got wised up and said I gotta give up one of them. And I gave up the grad coordinator part, but - I did not stay in touch with them. Except they knew I was available if they need it, if they had questions, but I didn't go in for day to day anymore. And I'm trying to remember I think it operated for five or six more years. I think Elle Perry, who now works at the Daily memphian was the last coordinator. Yeah. And I don't know who was that? I don't know who was handling it from inside of the department. Maybe it was Dr. Arant - David Arant - and Otis Sanford. I believe that's who it was. But anyway, no, I was it failed at the at the end because Scripps Howard got out the newspaper business. So their foundation was no longer supporting newspaper projects. And then, of course, as with all newspapers, that financial belt was tightening. And then Angus McCarran retired right After I retired, or maybe before, I'm not sure, I think he retired before I entirely retired. And so, sadly it went away. Sadly, it went away. But it was the only one of its kind in the country. I thought it was a great program. And experimental, but I think the experiment worked. But like I say it had two drawbacks. They had to get be willing to give financial support. And they had to be willing to have people on board who are willing to commit to that much time, and effort and energy. And it, it takes both of those to make it work.


Jackson Brown  45:56

Do you think it would work now?


Elinor Grusin  45:59

Do I think it would work now? Oh, it depends, first of all, on securing the financial support. If that could happen, as far as would it worked with the students, I think it would always work with the students. They don't do journalism in the high schools. They do not do journalism in the high schools. There are a couple of private schools that do some, but generally they don't. But it would work. Yes, it would definitely work. If you're say asking, would the students respond? Yes, I do believe the students would respond. And so the two critical questions would be how do you find somebody who's willing to commit that much time and energy to do it? And how do you find someone who's willing to, to finance it? And who would finance it with newspapers as being in the shape that they're in right now? I don't know. I don't know if you could find it, the financial support. I understand the department reached out to some possible funders, and were rejected. But, you know, there were some obvious possibilities around town that they didn't reach out to like, go back to the plough family Foundation. They were extremely friendly. In there. It took one meeting with them. And they handed over them the grant. And they're still around, you know, and I see things all the time that are getting funding. And they're not as productive as we were. I've got a long list that I could print off for you. From my computer in there. Of the students and what they what they did, where they went to school, what they majored in, and how well they did and what they're doing now. Well, now, I don't know, because I could have changed jobs since I've been out of the loop for so long. But initially, what they did


Jackson Brown  48:39

when you look back on that, what makes you most proud of what it became who they were,


Elinor Grusin  48:46

oh, the students where they were they what they did later. Even the young man who switched out of journalism, you know, he didn't fail. And he didn't fail the teen appeal. He became - he had a rough childhood. I'll just put it like that. One of the roughest I've ever heard of. Brother killed by a drug dealer. And he went to a went by he was so determined. He went back after he left journalism and got after Yeah, after he left journalism, and got his doctorate and is rising up. He's He's a real star I would say in the city schools, now County Schools. And there are so many people who have done great things for themselves and for others. Either they're teaching are they are. They have gone off to a side profession, are there some who have just stayed in journalism. And they made their life better. And so that's, that's, that's the end goal. That's the end goal.


Jackson Brown  50:23

Before we wrap up, is there anything else you want to talk about any other stories? Yeah,


Elinor Grusin  50:31

I would just hope that there would be someone who would want to tackle this, again, want to put the, obviously I'm past it. I don't know I have that energy. I had plenty of energy at the time. But I just wished that there was someone who would want to tackle this again, and open this up to students, to show them the possibilities that they could do, could have in their life.


Jackson Brown  51:20

Thank you so much for your time, I'm going to stop recording.

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